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Re: songwriters and geography trivia
'Kay... I haven't read my mail in a few days, so I came back to this whole debate. I'd like to throw
my .02 in, so I'll try to respond to this post since both Amy and Jan's responses are included. Not
that I'm the authority on this or anything (obviously)... i'm editing cuz I didn't want to respond
to every point made and I want to (at least a little bit) conserve space.
Jan:
> > [...] okay, first of all, i am just using dobson as an example because the quote
> > i
> > mentioned earlier had to do with him.
Amy:
> But if you are going to use someone as an example you should properly use them
> then. if you are going to be general than be general, don't pull someone's name
> into it, cause there are people on the list who are getting their opinion of this
> one person affected because of a *opinion* that didn't accuratly represent that
> person.
But it kinda does accurately represent Dobson. I live in Colorado, where Focus is located, and Focus
as an organization/corporation was basically founded (or, at least, became the giant it is today)
because of one thing - Amendment 2 on the Colorado ballot in 1992 - the "should gays have protected
status" amendment to Colorado's constitution that was passed by the people and then declared
unconstitutional. Yeah, Dobson has pulled a lot of other things under his umbrella of "family
values", but it's still how it all got rolling. And, being in Colorado, a half-hour from CSU, where
a lot of the Matthew Shepard stuff seemed to originate (I know it was mainly based in Laramie at
Wyoming Univ., but weren't the guys who beat Shepard from Ft. Collins or something like that?), it
was all that much more shocking that all this crap happened in my back yard.
Jan:
> > if he opposes homosexualITY
> > based on a narrow interpretation of scripture, then that is understandable,
> > but what most christians do is oppose the individual who happens to be gay.
> > that's not what jesus would do at all.
Right. But he would pretty much make the statement that what they're doing is wrong, and they should
stop. All the while, completely loving them and who they are and, along with that, treating them
with simple human dignity (the stories of the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery who
the Pharisees were going to stone come to mind). As far as it being a narrow interpretation of
Scripture, Paul pretty much spells out in Romans that God felt it was wrong (chapter 1). Now, I do
believe in the Bible to be God's Word, but I don't believe the fact that God said something was
wrong is a license to judge them, or, quite obviously, harm them. I mean, Christ Himself told the
ol' religious guys that the ones who hadn't sinned themselves could be the first ones to pick up a
stone in the aforementioned story of the woman caught in adultery. So, before I can say word one, I
need to make sure I haven't done something wrong myself. Which isn't ever the case.
Amy:
> like I said, it's sad what the people do with what they here. At the same time,
> Jesus judges harshly with those people who respond wrongly, and he also deals
> harshly with those who are walking in sin (I am not saying anything about what is
> right or wrong. You need to decide that for yourself. but I am making a point that
> *yes* Jesus loves them and loves them deeply and he would by no means do what
> *extremists* do. but at the same time, don't make him out to be a nice kind accept
> all either. cause like the woman who had 5 husbands (who had divorced mind you)
> and told her to 'go and sin no more'. he did love her and did forgive her but in
> no ways tolerated what she was doing.)
I think "in no ways tolerated what she was doing" is a bit harsh. He told her to not do it, but I
think He also realized that the choice was up to her.
> > then christians should stop saying it is!!!! i am going to blow up this
> > clinic in the name of god!!! [...]
>
> but you are taking extremes here. It would be like saying the arab people are all
> terrorists. they most certainly are not. but your view of them causes them to seem
> that way becuase all you see are the times when they blew up an airplane. the
> majority of christians do not do this. and I would tend to point out that the
> people who *listen* to leaders aren't listening to people like Dr. Dobson, in
> fact, I would tend to think they are listening to people more like Rush Limbaugh
> for example who is not a christian. If they listen to Dr. Dobson's program for any
> period of time they hear that is not a way to solve and isn't condoned and is come
> against in the programs themselves.
I like Amy's point here about all Arabs not being terrorists. I feel a lot of the time like all of
us Christians are perceived as blind sheep who will follow at any cost and do things of extreme
stupidity without thinking of the consequences (like blowing up abortion clinics, etc). Which 99% of
the time isn't the case.
> If we are only talking about extremests I would need to bring to light there are
> far more extremists who are murdering christian people and picketing christian
> events and have even gotten things like 'march for jesus' cancelled becuase of
> death threats and such. (prime example if we want to take extremes. Jonesboro high
> school. (or was it the other one?) where students were having a prayer meeting and
> a shooter (another student) comes in and opens fire... kids are influenced by the
> people they are around. so we can go on and on about extremes if we care to.)
> that wasn't the point. and far more people in general who kill innocent people
> that aren't christians at all.
But I think the point that's being made is that there isn't a common factor with the "non-Christian
wackos" like there is with the "Christian wackos". Far too many people are doing some pretty crazy
crap "in the name of Jesus."
> > i do not have the same
> > opinion as holy text y, though, so if it is a requirement of that religion
> > that i agree with everything in the holy text, then i guess i can't be a
> > member of that religious group."
>
> I supppose then it comes to what you believe about your religion. cause to me, if
> I believe that 'holy text y' is the word of God then I am not going to say (again
> I am speaking in extreme) "Oh, I think it's okay to murder someone, so just cause
> the 'holy text y' says I shouldn't, I don't care, cause it goes against what 'I'
> believe. To me that is saying "I don't believe that 'holy text y' is what I say it
> is. which is being a hypocrite (how do you spell that word?)
Yes, it is hypocritical. But a lot of the wackos seem to think it's along the lines of civil
disobedience to make some huge stand against the evils of society. Like bombing a clinic. And I
guess that does mean that they're reading the Bible and saying "I don't care what it says. The lives
of babies are more important." When it comes down to it, Christ is our example. He is for
Christians, anyway. Holding people who aren't Christians to the morality of Christ is another post
altogether. But, if Christ is to be our example, then look at all the huge stands on
politics/society that He took in His life... One. "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's." "Pay your
taxes," in essence. He wasn't the big political activist that groups like Dobson's seem to want to
make Him out to be. When I open my copy of the Denver Post and read about how James Dobson is making
another big political stand claiming that he'll tell his listeners to pull their support from the
Republican party if they don't make some official stand on abortion, it makes me ill. Being a
follower of Christ doesn't put you into a particular ideology. It just means you believe He was who
He said He was and you go from there. No membership card into the Christian Coalition arrives at
your house or anything. :)>
Anyway, thanks for giving me the chance to voice. I know it's rather long.
--
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Peace, hope, love, Jesus Christ - Layner
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...it meant the world to hold a bruising faith,
but now it's just a matter of grace... - Smashing Pumpkins
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