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Re: homophobia (little otr)
Notice to people who are offended/annoyed/traumatized by off-topic posts or
discussions which transcend the superficial. You've been warned. :o)
> first off, regarding "june", i don't see any sort of
> lesbian imagery, not even subtle...but that's just me.
> i never seem to read sexual imagery or metaphor into
> songs, it's not the way i think.
Yeah, same here. I know that a lot of OTR's music /feels/ erotic, but the
imagery contained within those songs I generally read on a deeper level.
> anyway, back to the issue that i thought i would keep
> my mouth shut over.
Me too.
> i think the hyperbolic nature of some christians really
> needs to be taken stock of here...do any of you realize
> how much things get over-dramatized in some modern
> christian groups?
Sure - that's why I don't really associate with any modern Christian groups.
But that doesn't make the seed of what's being dramatized untrue.
> so we all make mistakes, so we all naturally
> drive on the selfish side of the road. so what???
You're certainly not the first to espouse this kind of worldview, but
everytime I see it expressed, it always makes me sad.
> i don't think "sin" is a disease. i don't. and i didn't when i was a
> card-carrying christian, either.
Sounds to me like you were never a "card-carrying Christian, then. <g>
Seriously, the entire idea around which Christianity is based is that man is
a fallen creature, afflicted with a spiritual disease which leads to death.
You really can't skirt that issue and still claim to be recognizable as a
Christian.
> it's like saying humanity is a disease.
It's not at all like that. Not even a little bit. Humanity is a diseased
creation, not a disease in and of itself.
> to speak in further christianese, to sin is just a part
> of being human, and no one can deny that.
No one does, as far as I know.
> and i think it's just as much of a wrongdoing when you
> ask forgiveness for something you don't feel is wrong
> and isn't hurting anyone.
How so? I mean, after all, if you don't "feel" that it's wrong to ask
forgiveness, and if it's not hurting anyone, how can you call it
"wrongdoing"?
> and i don't think homosexuality is a sin. i don't care what
> you say, nothing will change my mind.
Well, that's the crux of the problem, then. I guess I'll just never
understand people who are arrogant enough to believe that they've Got It All
Figured Out, and nothing will change their mind. How very silly and naive.
(Please note, I'm not referring to you specifically, because I don't know
you at all. You may not be this kind of person, but your statement certainly
smacks of this attitude)
> which are often misinterpreted anyway. i believe there
> is a reason for everything...and someone's sexual orientation
> is given to them the same way i was given hazel eyes and
> black hair. end of my story.
Given by whom?
> i have too much personal evidence to be swayed from that.
Such as? (I'm not asking this in order to shoot you down, by the way. I'm
genuinely curious. I find people's subjective experiences infinitely more
interesting than a lot of so-called "objective" evidence)
> i mean parading around, championing against gays, and not
> just disapproving or disagreeing, but actively SHOWING
> THAT YOU ARE DISGUSTED. i'm sure you don't like it when
> someone walks around saying "christians suck! god is dead!!!"
Doesn't bother me all that much, really, although I do think it's silly.
I'm really more curious about how and why people arrive at their belief
systems. Unfortunately, asking questions is often interpreted as some kind
of an attack. I can only guess that such reactions are common because many
people have no rationale for their belief systems. <shrug>
> do we really want to keep treating people that way?
No, of course not. No one should be treated poorly because they are
homosexuals.
> think about it. and don't throw any of that "love the
> sinner, hate the sin" bollocks at me. it's the biggest
> cop-out i've ever heard...unless you are someone
> who *really* puts that belief into action.
Since you haven't bothered to put this politely, I guess I won't either:
bullshit.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is at least a rational and workable method
of dealing with people whose lifestyle you disagree with. It's a far more
intelligent response than railing against people for holding beliefs
different from your own.
For the record, I am a person who puts that belief into action. One of my
closest friends came out of the closet to me about a year ago. He's been
living a lie ever since I've known him (about 15 years), and is a hurting,
lonely, frightened and messed-up individual. I think it sucks that he has to
feel afraid. I think it sucks that he isn't able to come to church (where he
was my longtime youth pastor) and talk about his struggles like everyone
else. I think it sucks that he can't ask friends to pray for him because
he's afraid of what they'll think.
Without tooting my own horn, I'm the only person in the world that this guy
can lean on, and I've done my damned-est to be there for him. I've let him
cry on my shoulder, spent countless sleepless nights just being there, and
I've offered him the best advice that I have (though I'm woefully inadequate
to the task).
I cannot, in good conscience, tell him that I think it's okay to live a gay
lifestyle (see my sig line). But anyone who wants to tell me that I don't
love him can, with all due respect, go to hell.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that the entire notion is not "bollocks",
regardless of whether or not people put it into action. It /can/ be used as
a cop-out, yes, but no more so than offering nothing other than your own
convictions for a given belief and expecting other people to buy it.
I hope you don't take any of this to be inflammatory. I'm not at all riled
up over this, but I /do/ get tired of hearing the same old unsubstantiated
rhetoric day after day.
paul christian glenn | pcg at runbox_com
"between you and me
it's hard to ever really know who to trust
how to think
what to believe
between me and you
it's hard to ever really know who to choose
how to feel
what to do..."
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