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Re: I may be eclectic, but at least I'm a snob.

Tim <Toggedout at aol_com> says:
> edward jay writes:  so, in summary so far - i demand passion, honesty, 
> integrity, passion, uniqueness, depth, passion, freshness, aggression, 
> passion, sensitivity, nuance..
>  
>  young grasshopper has so much to learn, (when you can walk on the rice 
paper 
> without tearing it, then you will be ready to leave--Kung Fu, the 
ubiquitous 
> terrible tv series).

ooh, i love that show. that IS the one with David Carradine, right?
anyway, it's all about the Shao-lin discipline!
(that's what fellow listie Andy Sten and myself used to study...)

>  While I understand much of what you are saying, you want something new, 
> something that isn't canned music or emotion, nowhere do you mention the 
> really important thing, quality.  (not that i should talk, as some of my 
> faves have already been outed.)  By quality I mean, of course, something 
that 
> transcends slick production or nifty effects, but the quality of what is 
> being said, played, or something that can *almost* be distilled to pure 
> talent.  

yes, yes... you're right.

>  Granted, this generally excludes your corporate radios or anything found 
in 
> the aisles of Wal*Mart's paltry cd section, it also eliminates many other 
> bands, who have sincerity gushing out of their instruments, through their 
> very skin, but do not recognize the lack of quality. 

right-O.

i don't generally use that term in music,
because "people just don't understand."

if i -say- that i listen to Polly Jean Harvey because of the -quality-
of her music, i'll undoubtedly get the dumb stares. or the snide glares.
i believe she has tremendous quality, but many would say "quality?!
didn't she write that, you know, big fish little fish song? she's crap!"

let's revisit the book of definitions:

1.  a. An inherent or distinguishing characteristic; a property.
     b. A personal trait, especially a character trait:
         someone with few redeeming qualities.
2. Essential character; nature:
    Mahogany has the quality of being durable.
3.  a. Superiority of kind: an intellect of unquestioned quality.
     b. Degree or grade of excellence: yard goods of low quality.
4.  a. High social position. b. Those in a high social position.
5. (Music.) Timbre, as determined by overtones:
     a voice with a distinctive metallic quality.
6. (Linguistics.) The character of a vowel sound determined
     by the size and shape of the oral cavity and the amount
     of resonance with which the sound is produced.
7. (Logic.) The positive or negative character of a proposition. 


using definition 3a, my example of PJ certainly works.

...but only because it's relative. and therefore fickle in a way.
                     because it involves my -opinion-.

i say that that woman has an incredible sense of beauty in her music,
and, after reading your post, i'd also say that her music is of high quality.
sure enough.


but i still shy away from that word in this discussion.
i'm not comfortable with that word in the arts so much.
because i work in the automotive industry.
(and Bruce, you tell me if you feel the same way.
tell me if you think i'm full of it here. we're in different
circumstances, but maybe not SO different?)

ok.
around these parts, you cannot compare beauty to quality.
one refers to how something makes you _feel_, the other
refers whether something is _true to blueprint_ or not.

if someone around here confuses quality with beauty,
it's their kiss of death.

quality = cold hard product. non-human.
beauty (or passion, etc.) = expression. emotion. human.


so Tim, i sincerely do appreciate your reply, yet i also wish
to warn people to use discretion when speaking on matters of "quality".


i hear quality, i immediately think "did that bracket stay within
its +/- 1 degree bend tolerance?", "does that hole have a sharp
burr around the edge?",  "is this part going to interfere with the
other supplier's part?"

or in matters of clothing - "are these seams going to come apart
within the next two years?", "is this material going to rub thin?"

so you know what i'm saying... just be careful with that word.
thass' all.


                          curious poll here:
what are the first thoughts that come to
everyone's mind when they hear the word "quality"?


>  This, of course, relates to the topic of books you brought up as well.  
T.S. 
> Eliot said "The worst thing a poet can be is sincere."  (I don't actually 
> think he said it, but somebody sure did, but their name escapes me, along 
> with the gradually diluted thread of my point...)

grrr... whoever said that, well, i disagree sharply.

>  ps--is there some magic way of transferring a portion of a previous post 
> into my post without typing it out?  Which is what I've been doing, and 
boy, 
> is it tedious.  If it continues, I'm breaking out the stone and chisel and 
> just throwing tablets at people.  Much easier.


aye, sir! and you are an AOL user. 

when you read a message, simply highlight (using your mouse)
the text that you want to be copied, then hot the "reply" button.

finito.

HTH.

jay

NP: Laibach - Opus Dei - 11 - Koza (Skin).mp3

We don't love qualities, we love persons; sometimes by reason of their 
defects as well as of their qualities.
Jacques Maritain (1882-1973)
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