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Re: @ Perfect Flag Burning Day
In a message dated 7/7/99 2:18:00 PM, barkera at nsk-corp_com writes:
<<
>Well OK. Who controls how the congress votes? Show me how many votes there
>are that special interest lobbies don't control. If you think this isn't
>true,you need a lobotomy.
Lobbies and such have had large influences for a looonnngg time. As
information
became easier to distribute, we learned more and more about what's been there
all along.
The question was,should they have the right to influence our elections. I
don't think so. It's nothing but bribery.
>The Japanese have huge lobbies.
And they're always decorated soooo nicely. 8-)
I prefer the way we decorated them at the end of WW2. :-)
I won't scrutinize your spelling. :-)
> Anyone remember how
>much Ronald Reagan got when he left office to speak in Japan. Think that
>wasn't a pay off for him letting them dump all their steel here? Honda of
>America? We assemble them here.And the money goes back there. How many US
Automakers are in Japan?
How much did RR get?
2 Million. Figure he was worth it? Sounds like payback to me.
See, I work for a Japanese company. I've been here since '92. All during
that
time, if
we imported partially completed components (for the auto industry) we had to
pay
a "dumping fee" as a penalty for importing parts we could make here. Why did
we
do that? At the time, our production capacities could not meet the demand of
our
product. As time has passed and we've streamlined our process, we can now
meet
our goals without importing.
But I would have to ask,was that because their government subsidized the
product,or just because of the specificity of the product.
This is a similar scenario as the steel industry
faced. Thier
problem was compounded by the antiquated and inefficient mills that remained
from the
pre-war era when labor and materials were relatively cheap. New mills built
overseas
as industry and technology spread naturally outpaced the old US mills that
were
forced
out of business if they didn't modernize. New mills being built here by US
and
foreign
investors are currently bringing back some of the US-produced steel industry
that had
disappeared over the years.
Bullshit. There is clear proof against that assertion in the congressional
record. Thats why workers eventually recieved TRA and had their retraining
subsidised. It was due to the lack of good trade policies and the dumping of
product by foriegn companies. Also,the mills where I lived,some divisions
were making money hand over fist. The companies then merged divisions,showed
losses,sucked all the money out of the mills and the pension funds and
abbandoned them. I know retired steelworkers with 40 years service that have
pension between 400-600 dollars a month. There was a lot more to what
happened than antiquated mills. I will agree with the things you said above
that happened,but it wasn't the whole story. Japan was selling steel to us
way lower than the cost of even the production. And then they had to ship it
here at more cost. That was something that politicians and lobbys caused and
allowed to happen.
As for money leaving our shores, I don't totally agree. Our plant was built
with funds supplied
by our Japanese parent company to the tune of $15-20 million that was brought
from Japan
and spent here. Money earned from the sales of our product to US-based auto
makers
is distributed to the employees to freely spend in our community. Most of the
revenue we
generate stays here and is either payroll or reinvested into the plant with a
small percentage
of the profit going back to 'corporate'.
You probably don't realize that both Honda and Toyota make cars here that are
imported
back to Japan as well as cars for the US market. Where does the money go
that a
Japanese family
spends on a Honda from Marysville? Some goes to Honda-Japan, some goes to
Honda
in Marysville, OH. That's money that might not get here if Honda hadn't built
an assembly
plant here.
Some of that I didnt know. The trade deficit with Japan is closer than it
has been,but that still does not alter the fact that trade needs to be fair
and equitable.
If you'd like to draw a parallel, the US is Japan's Mexico. Labor
and operations
costs are so high in Japan, that it's far cheaper to come here to a less
expensive economy
and produce goods for greater profit. Most people are in business to make
money, and as
long as they play by the rules of the game, they deserve to make as much as
they
can.
Thats what I said. As long as they play by the rules. Fair rules. Rules that
we as a sovereign nation deem as fair and not some body of others telling our
government what to do. We have that abillity. Trust me.
Generally, companies that lose business to non-US sites weren't willing to
make
the neccessary
changes in order to become profitable enough to maintain themselves.
I'll quickly say that a big reason US automakers aren't in Japan is that
there's
nowhere for them
to build a facility in order to produce cars. Japan's industrial volume is
near
critical mass, that's
another reason to move to the spacious US. Besides, of the cars small enough
for Japan's
narrow and tight roadways, most are rebadged imports from Japanese or Korean
auto makers,
so there's not much point in adding $100's of dollars to a car just to make it
look like a Chevy
or Ford.
>How about the religious right,the gun lobby,Archer
>Daniels Midland, The tobacco industry to name a few, See no vote by proxy
>there? The truth is almost every vote taken, is based on legal bribery.
>Yes,that is the number one problem.
Blah, blah, blah. Yak, yak, yak. Obvious, obvious, obvious.
Well I believe that was one of the main points. That needs changing. That was
the main issue of contention as a matter of fact. So you agree?
>I don't want to hear global economy either.
That's like not wanting to hear the sky is blue.
That of course was in the context of free and fair trade. So yes, the sky is
blue.
>First,even up the playing
>field,then fair trade. We should not subsidize the Mexicans and Canadians
>with the jobs of American workers. Free trade must be fair trade. This
>premise that if you are against the trade policies that somehow translates
>that you are against free trade is a misrepresentation of the truth.
Unless you're willing to spent a large percentage more for nearly anything
you buy, that's just the way it's gotta be.
I disagree. We dont have to sacrifice American jobs at the altar of progress.
Let everyone share equally in the losses. The way of the world governing
body,isn't always the best.
> And I
>for one don't want a world body deciding what the founders gave the three
>branches of government the duty to do.
Times change, luddite. The world's a bigger place than 13 renegade colonies.
Times change but human nature doesent. I don't think anyone understood that
more than our founders. We can remain free,trade fair, and be equitable with
the rest of the world. Honestly,I can't figure out what scares you about
that. You don't think there is any other way?
>We should decide fairly these issues with these things in mind.
>a) Our sovereignty
>b) Our best interest
>c) The voice of the people and not corporations
>d) and a reverence to our constitution and history.
>
>I stand by my blanket statement and my country. I sometimes find it sickening
>that some people would always rationalize the sacrifice of others for the
>common good.
As much as I disagree with you, you should stand by your beliefs. A few
things
might come out of it. You'll maybe eventually prove us right or wrong, or we
may just find some middle common ground. Just lay off the Canadians, they're
a decent bunch of people; more so than most I've put up with my entire life
here.
I have nothing against the Canadians. I have a problem how they were allowed
to dump their beef. I have a problem with the shortsightedness of our trade
policy that allowed them to do it. If I were them I would have done the same
thing. Thats why we should be allowed on our own, to decide whats fair and
best for us. We can do that freely and fairly and we can all benefit.
>Put a human face on your belief and watch it change.
This is a fair statement. I watched a man loose all he had because our
government pulled out the rug from under him. A farmer has many things to
gamble with to stay alive. He shouldnt ever have to second guess his
governments loyalty to him. He should have expected a fair shot at the
market. Not an advantage,but fair.
You see Bill (Daddy Warbucks) Clinton cut a deal for the Florida orange
growers before he signed NAFTA. Why didnt he take the time to care for all of
his people?