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what is tolerance again?
hey all,
it's a beautiful rainy day here in tallahassee. i
made good coffee for all my classes since they had a
test today. and now...ahhh. my classroom smells like
it.
and wow. what a great discussion regarding "g-d."
i have a few thoughts too. first, i chime in with
those who appreciate the sincerity and seriousness of
what ysoi does by not writing the full name of g-d.
out of general respect for her and out of a curiosity
of what it all means and what i might learn from it.
so...
>So. Why don't I mention what religion I am? Cos it's
no >one's damn
>business.
'tis very true. one's religion or anything can be
kept to oneself. and we should not force anyone to
talk about offical credos and personal details etc. i
agree with that.
but for many people, it's not this "religion" issue.
i know many of us fall under the christian label and
talk about (and around, mind you) many issues
pertinent to that official faith. for a lot of
us...at least for myself can i speak...it's about
life. period. what do i learn. what do i notice.
what do i learn from you and share with you...all of
you.
often that involves eternal questions and "guesses."
sometimes i'd call them more than guesses b/c of why i
might be convinced of them--you may call them
opinions. either way, they form part of who i am and
where i'm at. they also, on a more superficial level,
are part of what interests me.
we talk about a lot of points of interest. some are
about feelings or deep issues, and some are just about
buffy the vampire slayer or the music of nine inch
nails. it's fun. and once in a while, it's themed
well with over the rhine. that's particularly fun.
>You don't see Jews on streetcorners exhorting people
to >repent cos the
>end is nigh, do you? Jews don't come to your door to
>invite you to sit
>in
>the sukkah with you on Sukkot, do they? We don't
parade >down your
>street
but maybe i'm offended b/c you don't :) there are a
whole host of things that offend people for a variety
of reasons.
>There's an old joke: two Jews, three opinions. What >
>that means is
>sometimes we don't even agree with ourselves, much
less >each other. But
>on the whole, we believe that a person's relationship
>
>with G-d is the
>single most personal relationship there is. It's >
>between that person
>and
>G-d. No one else.
and there are many people who point to the fact that
we're all in community. no man is an island. i think
my point here is that there might be several
understandings of what "personal" means.
also, for some people, maybe christians, seeing the
value in a community implies sharing and listening.
paying attention and giving what you have to give (in
terms of wisdom, service, love...whatever it is). a
practical picture of this is sometimes a discussion.
about god. about how we relate to our world and him
or, well, anything.
i'm not sitting here trying to shake my finger and
just tell everyone "how it is." but since this list
values pluralism with all margins accepted, i invite
it to include everyone--even the majority. every
official faith worn by others carries some baggage
even alongside the revelation there. maybe we
wouldn't agree right now on which is which :)...but,
unless i'm mistaken, there'll be a time for the chaff
to be sorted from the wheat.
and not by me or you.
>"Please respect that that person might be offended by
>
>your ascribing
>religious ideals to him that he might not espouse."
this makes sense. i think we should feel free to
speculate and make connections etc., but saying
everything with authority and without humility is
silly...and often offensive.
>I was raised that in the end, it's
>all the same: the aim of religion is to bring comfort
>
>to the soul (with
i was pretty much raised that way too. but i don't
believe it. i also agree with ysoi in terms of
soul-comfort being the aim of religion. but
personally speaking, i'm searching for truth beyond
aims and religion. i don't think of jesus as being in
actuality confined by either.
i think we have a major problem in the u.s. with
utilitarian frames for everything. yeah, they're
"useful;" but i don't think everything boils down to
this "institution/goals" setup.
>I don't believe G-d is that simple, or even
>something I can completely understand.
i sometimes wonder if he isn't simple...but deeper
than i could ever handle.
>I also don't think that this is
>the place to have this discussion. It's not why I
>signed up to the Over
>the Rhine list, and I don't think it's why everyone >
>else signed up,
>either.
this is where i just throw my hands up and say,
"whatever." i mean, what is close enough the the
"guidelines?" and why did each and every person sign
up for the list? i certainly don't know. i do agree
that there is a careful balance we maintain here...and
belittling, flaming etc. is completely inappropriate.
i think the point is to _try not_ to offend people.
but we also have to note that even though we try, we
will offend anyway...someone, somewhere. that's life.
i'm not belittling pain and offense, but it's
something we have to work through with a little
grace/room for other people. no topic is truly safe.
if we're going to be so regimented, we might as well
unsubscribe. i'll say this much, if we do become
legalistic this way, i will.
>I respect that to a lot of people here on this list,
>it's part of your
>religious duty to bring people to your way, your
it's true. there is an aspect of duty for some
people. and i like the way you linked it to worship.
i think that's often accurate. but for many
evangelization is not viewed as a task or duty. but
more to the point: many christians talking about
issues that interest them aren't necessarily doing so
to attract converts.
buddy, if i want to share the love of christ, i'm
gonna wash someone's nasty, stank feet, feed them and
comfort them in their grief. i'm gonna clean their
bleeding wound and build them a place to live. if it
were directly intentional, i'd probably be
counteractive here :) it's that 3 opinions things :)
here, i let people see my questions, weaknesses and
frustrations even. those things aren't usually
attractive to the average human being in this
understanding of implied evangelism.
>the implied
>evangelising consumes discussion threads over and
over
i think some people do this time and again. but we
should extend mercy. maybe they do it out of
conviction...maybe they do it out of some strange
fear. but maybe it leaves a bitter taste for one of
those reasons.
>It HAS caused a lot of disagreements, but I feel
>sometimes
>like no one here cares. We're a small community here,
yeah. it has. some people have been truly wounded by
jerky behavior. but jerky behavior is what it is.
kyle was no religious fanatic :) plus, i don't
dislike him personally. we had fun emailing and
talking about this and that.
we're gonna disagree on things. if we can't keep it
real, then it ceases to exist. i don't believe in
this serene vision of people together in any forum...i
don't think it exists.
i might also add that "shalom," that dandy word for
"peace," is not a non-confrontational peace. it's the
destruction of your enemies. kick butt and take
names. by enemies, maybe we could infer things like
biggotry, hipocricy, ignorance, jerkiness. once we
have confrontations, we can have shalom.
the delineations of "public" and "private" are
difficult for us. "non-offensive" and "offensive."
'cause we're all different. if we were all to step in
and request that certain things be left out of
discussion (even with the deepest sincerity etc.), we
wouldn't be talking.
this thing would be over and done.
i don't want it to be.
take care,
j. marie
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