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Re: homophobia (little otr)
This will be my last post on this subject, after which I will take any
replies off-list (for the sake of Ysoie, who seems to be the only one
complaining <g>).
> honestly, i didn't mean that. it's not the message that i
> have a problem with (the message of christ, and all that
> comes with it). i have no problem with it in the least. it's
> the blowing-up and the histrionics that some overexcited'
> people take to the table when relaying a christian message.
Yes, I agree completely. What people don't seem to realize is that Jesus
didn't often get all in a lather about people's sin. He usually told them to
stop it and then went his way. The one notable exception, of course, was the
cleansing of the temple, which concerned the actual defiling of the house of
worship.
> >You're certainly not the first to espouse this kind of worldview, but
> >everytime I see it expressed, it always makes me sad.
>
> i did mean that, but the "so what" wasn't necessarily a flippant one. it
was
> more of a "so what" in realizing that we all do stupid and wrong
> things...and that fact in itself is nothing to be ashamed of.
Hm. I guess I simply disagree. I feel that doing stupid and wrong things
/is/ something to be ashamed of. The fact that everyone else does them too
is no comfort for me.
> well, i have no idea what dress my christianity fits into *now*...
Heh. Welcome to the club. Peter, you want to scoot over and make a little
room? Thanks. I'm sure Karin and Linford will be here any minute. ;)
> i still do agree with the fact that humans are fallen
> creatures that drive on the selfish side of the road most
> of the time. once again, i have no problem with that. i
> just don't see every little thing we do that is wrong as
> something that makes us evil.
I think you're right, here. The wrong things we do are not what /make/ us
evil, but rather they are a symptom, or evidence of our fallenness. In the
same way that sneezing doesn't give you a cold - it is evidence that you
already have a cold. Or, to put it another way, sneezing is evidence that
there is something wrong with you, deep down inside.
> > No one does, as far as I know.
>
> well then i should have come to christ around people like
> you and your friends. i've been *so* fortunate to spend time
> with christians who either a) don't care about anything and
> are only in church because they have to be, or b) are so
> caught up in trying to be perfect that they lose sight of the
> fact that we all sin.
Yeah, that's unfortunate. I think the church as a whole could use a healthy
dose of humility (myself included). In my experience, those kinds of people
generally constitute a small portion of the church as a whole, but they're
usually loudmouths who worm their way into positions of leadership. Sad.
> i sure don't think i have anything all figured out.
> [snip] i never *reject* others' opinions
But what about "i don't care what you say, nothing will change my mind" -
that certainly sounds like a rejection of others' opinions to me.
> i was merely stating my opinion. i'm sorry if i came off
> like "this is the way it is!" because that isn't what i
> meant. i was trying to come off like, "this is my opinion,
> and this is what i believe. someone reply and challenge
> me...make me think."
Oh, okay. Gotcha. ;)
> personal evidence being people i am very close with,
> who i've grown up with...people with no emotional
> scarring or abuse or strange lives that were so heavily
> exhibiting traits and mannerisms and feelings that made
> it no surprise when they came out of the closet. very
> close friends and family who have always been that way,
> and never saw life any other way...of their own inner
> searching and accord. i wish i could explain it more
> eloquently, but i can't. maybe i'll try again if this
> makes no sense. :(
No, I think I understand what you're trying to say. I guess we're just
coming at this from different points of view. I'm trying to understand these
things in light of an objective, transcendent morality, whereas you're
trying to understand them in terms of whether or not people are happy and/or
at peace (which is a kind of morality in itself, of course, though
necessarily subjective, and therefore - I can't help adding - a bit
untrustworthy).
> i've gone through a few transformations in what i believe,
> and i'm not done yet. i have many many more to go through...i
> am always looking to learn,
Yeah, me too.
> > No, of course not. No one should be treated poorly
> > because they are homosexuals.
>
> well i'm glad you agree with me. there are people out
> there who don't agree with that.
Yes, well, we can simply write those people off as morons, though. Agreed?
;)
> > It's a far more intelligent response than railing
> > against people for holding beliefs different from your own.
>
> well i'm sorry if i seemed to be railing into anyone.
And now it's my turn to apologize: I didn't intend for that to be directed
at you specifically. Re-reading it, however, I realize that's how it looked.
What really burns my biscuits is when people who claim to be open-minded
individuals start telling me that I have no right to hold the convictions
that I hold (or that I do have the right, but I'm an asshole for holding
them). The blatant inherent hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
> most of the christians i know personally just avoid that. or
> they ignore it when it's in their midst.
You're right, and I think this is a /huge/ problem in the church today.
Nobody wants to deal with these issues, because it makes them uncomfortable.
And so there are lonely souls out there who are dying for some support, some
answers, some true koininia. It is a shameful reflection on the church when
it refuses to acknowledge or help those in need.
Of course, those who want the church to recognize them have a responsibility
as well. It is important for them to STOP trying to change the church, but
rather understand what the church's position is and then approach the church
with respect for it's foundations. My mind boggles when I see gays and
lesbians attempting to force their beliefs upon churches who clearly don't
want them. It's silly and foolish. The church doesn't base it's beliefs upon
what makes people feel good. It doesn't base it's beliefs on what the
current social trend is. Hrm. This turned into a rant, didn't it? Sorry.
I just wish both sides would start listening to one another, that's all.
> i don't ever expect anyone to buy my beliefs and convictions.
Oh, I expect /everyone/ to buy my beliefs and convictions! <g>
> can someone please tell me what books i must go out and read,
> what classes i'm supposed to take, to gain this status and
> substance that you all have? why is it that i am so much less
> intelligent than all of you? can someone explain? can someone
> explain why i am always so wrong and everyone else around here,
> no matter how different their opinions, is always so right?
LOL! We're /all/ right, in our own minds. :)
paul christian glenn | pcg at runbox_com
"between you and me
it's hard to ever really know who to trust
how to think
what to believe
between me and you
it's hard to ever really know who to choose
how to feel
what to do..."
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