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Re: homophobia (little otr)
>Sure - that's why I don't really associate with any modern Christian
>groups.
>But that doesn't make the seed of what's being dramatized untrue.
honestly, i didn't mean that. it's not the message that i have a problem
with (the message of christ, and all that comes with it). i have no problem
with it in the least. it's the blowing-up and the histrionics that some
overexcited people take to the table when relaying a christian message.
i shouldn't knock it, because i know that their hearts are seriously in it,
which is probably the reason for the histrionics. i don't know, i just find
it annoying. but hey, i'm annoying as all get out, so i shouldn't talk. :)
>You're certainly not the first to espouse this kind of worldview, but
>everytime I see it expressed, it always makes me sad.
i did mean that, but the "so what" wasn't necessarily a flippant one. it was
more of a "so what" in realizing that we all do stupid and wrong
things...and that fact in itself is nothing to be ashamed of.
>Sounds to me like you were never a "card-carrying Christian, then. <g>
>Seriously, the entire idea around which Christianity is based is that man
>is
>a fallen creature, afflicted with a spiritual disease which leads to death.
>You really can't skirt that issue and still claim to be recognizable as a
>Christian.
well, i have no idea what dress my christianity fits into *now*...but back
when i was sure of what i believed...all that stuff about man being a fallen
creature...yes, i agreed with that. i still do agree with the fact that
humans are fallen creatures that drive on the selfish side of the road most
of the time. once again, i have no problem with that. i just don't see every
little thing we do that is wrong as something that makes us evil. that is
where i'm sitting back and questioning it all.
>It's not at all like that. Not even a little bit. Humanity is a diseased
>creation, not a disease in and of itself.
you're too smart for me, i have nothing to say to that. :)
>No one does, as far as I know.
well then i should have come to christ around people like you and your
friends. i've been *so* fortunate to spend time with christians who either
a) don't care about anything and are only in church because they have to be,
or b) are so caught up in trying to be perfect that they lose sight of the
fact that we all sin.
>How so? I mean, after all, if you don't "feel" that it's wrong to ask
>forgiveness, and if it's not hurting anyone, how can you call it
>"wrongdoing"?
i meant if you have done something, and do not believe it is wrong, or a
sin, or whatever...then asking forgiveness for it because someone says you
should is being dishonest to yourself. probably makes a lot more sense in my
head than on paper.
>Well, that's the crux of the problem, then. I guess I'll just never
>understand people who are arrogant enough to believe that they've Got It
>All
>Figured Out, and nothing will change their mind. How very silly and naive.
it's okay...no offence taken. i am definitely rather silly and naive
sometimes, i'll admit it. but i am not arrogant, and i sure don't think i
have anything all figured out. if i did, i wouldn't be where i am. trust me.
i am always open to hearing peoples' beliefs and ideas and points.
definitely. i never *reject* others' opinions, nor do i think that i am
Right. i was merely stating my opinion. i'm sorry if i came off like "this
is the way it is!" because that isn't what i meant. i was trying to come off
like, "this is my opinion, and this is what i believe. someone reply and
challenge me...make me think."
also...if someone brings up a point that really strikes me and opens my eyes
to something i might have missed...? well, then of course i'll change my
mind. so far no one has done that.
>Given by whom?
given by my mother, father, and all of my predecessors due to genes and
heredity and all that lovely scientific stuff.
>Such as? (I'm not asking this in order to shoot you down, by the way. I'm
>genuinely curious. I find people's subjective experiences infinitely more
>interesting than a lot of so-called "objective" evidence)
once again, i wasn't offended in the least. you seem nice and
non-threatening enough. :)
personal evidence being people i am very close with, who i've grown up
with...people with no emotional scarring or abuse or strange lives that were
so heavily exhibiting traits and mannerisms and feelings that made it no
surprise when they came out of the closet. very close friends and family who
have always been that way, and never saw life any other way...of their own
inner searching and accord. i wish i could explain it more eloquently, but i
can't. maybe i'll try again if this makes no sense. :(
>Doesn't bother me all that much, really, although I do think it's silly.
well it *is* silly, in my opinion. telling anyone that something defining
and huge in their life, something that makes them who they are (even if it's
not the only thing in their life) is wrong...it's silly. agreed.
>I'm really more curious about how and why people arrive at their belief
>systems. Unfortunately, asking questions is often interpreted as some kind
>of an attack. I can only guess that such reactions are common because many
>people have no rationale for their belief systems. <shrug>
i haven't seen any of your words as an attack in any way. i've arrived at my
belief system by living my life, knowing people, discussing things with
them, and asking questions. i've never just said, "hmmm...this is what i
believe." no...i look for things. i've gone through a few transformations in
what i believe, and i'm not done yet. i have many many more to go
through...i am always looking to learn, and figure out what it is that i
believe because i believe it...for whatever exact reasons i do. i'm not
static in what i believe, because i have loads more questions to ask...some
that i don't even know i want to ask yet.
>No, of course not. No one should be treated poorly because they are
>homosexuals.
well i'm glad you agree with me. there are people out there who don't agree
with that.
>"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is at least a rational and workable method
>of dealing with people whose lifestyle you disagree with.
of course it's rational and workable. the method and idea in and of itself i
have no beef with. in my reply to j.marie, i apologized for the way that
came out. i'll repeat here that, the people who run around using that as a
buzzphrase often aren't people who put it into action. not always, but
often.
>It's a far more
>intelligent response than railing against people for holding beliefs
>different from your own.
well i'm sorry if i seemed to be railing into anyone. i was merely stating
my beliefs and putting up a defence against buzzphrase people. putting up a
defence against silly folks who aren't truly compassionate and just run
around throwing jesus at people.
you, and most on this list...(actually, i can't really think of anyone on
this list who *is* that kind of silly person) are not that kind of person.
>Without tooting my own horn, I'm the only person in the world that this guy
>can lean on, and I've done my damned-est to be there for him.
that is truly admirable, and i mean that free of any sarcasm. i don't know
many people who are capable of that. most of the christians i know
personally just avoid that. or they ignore it when it's in their midst. i
have a friend who is christian, but often feels alienated because he is gay,
and no one has really picked up on his hints that he has dropped. they just
sort of ignore it...it's not something anyone ever talks about. so he keeps
going to church and feeling frustrated.
>But anyone who wants to tell me that I don't
>love him can, with all due respect, go to hell.
i would never doubt that.
>It /can/ be used as
>a cop-out, yes,
well that was all i was bitching about. nothing more.
>but no more so than offering nothing other than your own>convictions >for a
>given belief and expecting other people to buy it.
i don't ever expect anyone to buy my beliefs and convictions. that's why
they are mine. and honestly, i also wonder how people arrive at their belief
systems. usually, looking at your own life and figuring out what you think
is right and wrong works. sometimes it doesn't, due to personal bias. i'm
not propagnadizing, here.
and (this is not sarcastic or rude in any way...)can someone please tell me
what books i must go out and read, what classes i'm supposed to take, to
gain this status and substance that you all have? why is it that i am so
much less intelligent than all of you? can someone explain? can someone
explain why i am always so wrong and everyone else around here, no matter
how different their opinions, is always so right?
(that above was not directed at you paul...just the list.)
jillian.
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