[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

SS Beagle vs. SS Snoopy

Quoth me:

> >>A monkey will not paint if the monkey is not given the notion by 
> humans. 

Quoth Dana:

> Yikes, Fred!

3000 points for using yikes!!!!  Now, if only there was a game we were
playing.

And more: 

>Be careful with this one!  Are you an anthropologist?  

Umm.  Actually just a ridiculously advanced student of literature and
cultural studies.  Not really the same thing at all, in terms of research
methods.  But.  Erm.  Yeah.

> Very learned people spend their entire lives trying to disprove or
prove 
> what you so confidently state.

Well.  All I would say, in terms of proof on this one, is that if there
was monkey art done in the wild, some cat in New York would have it in
his gallery, and then the mayor would shut the show down, b/c, I think,
almost inevitably, the monkey would use elephant dung in the composition.
 Umm.

>If you have a study on this, I'd love to read it because it is something
that I have always >been curious about.

I read the original Tarzan book as a kid, but I don't thik that's what
you're looking for.   :)

>I'm  not flaming you, I'm just genuinely curious.

!  I didn't think you were.  Nothing rumpled, either way, I hope.

> We have many missionaries  and religious scholars on this list who
defend their >opinions well.  As  an anthropology scholar, I am just
giving some facts.


>The thing is, while many animals are not artistically 
> expressive, they are creative in other ways -- especially primates.  I
think 
> chimps using tools and lions using particular plans to snag gazelle is
pretty 
> creative.

Yeah, definitely interesting in terms of animal intelligence.  And most
likely these animals have a sense of beauty when their tool making and
planning works out like they wanted.  (Cue Hannibal from the A Team: "I
love it when a plan comes through."  Cue theme music.)  But I think
you'll agree there's a pretty immense difference between these acts and
even primitive cave drawings, between the monkey's tool and a simple
Bowie knife, between snagging a gazelle and driving quickly during rush
hour.  No.  Wait.  The rush hour thing is the same.  Rush hour makes us
all animals, doesn't it?  Erm.  Well.  And then.  There's an even bigger
difference between those animal acts and, you know, a symphony or an art
show.  I mean, the function of art in the human culture just doesn't
happen elsewhere, does it?  The idea that someone could live off of
making art and that the art they make could be enjoyed by countless
creatures who were not the artist.  Does that happen with animals?  And I
can see an animal being stimulated by certain patterns of sound or color.
 But to be stimulated by that and then to add the weight of ideas and
cultural beliefs.  This doesn't happen with animals, does it.  These are
lots of thoughts put together.  Umm.  Of course, I have no anthropolgical
stats on these things.  But it seems counterintuitve to me to say that
animals are creative for the same reasons and from the same instincts
that human art comes from.  So there's ten or fifteen cents worth on
that.  

> Human artistic expression is wonderful.  I don't deny that and I 
> don't deny that I would like to think that life goes beyond this earth.
 
> However, I see beauty in the animals and thier similiarites to humans. 
I see 
> beauty in human emotions and creativity and everything that humans are
involved with 
> -- but I also see it all as circular.  Nothing is beautiful without the
earth 
> and life and, as was stated, life is sacred.

Question, then: we see beauty as beauty.  Do animals?  They may sense a
rightness in  certain situations, but do they sense beauty, with all the
implications of moral goodness that goes along with that?

>I think that is one of the things that  we, as
> humans, have over other creatures -- the ability to regret our 
> actions (whether the regret is necessary or not) and the ability to
judge 
> when to take some action based on the regret -- like apologizing.

That is a big, big statement about human nature.  

But I have to go write about Harold Pinter now.

So I'll be done with all this posting to the list stuff for now.

Ping ponging over the abyss,

Fred



________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
---------------
Unsubscribe by going to http://www.actwin.com/MediaNation/OtR/