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Re: Over-The-Rhine Digest V2 #343
please take my name off the mailing list . thank you. jsoucy at secollege_edu
Over-The-Rhine Digest wrote:
> Over-The-Rhine Digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 02 : Number 343
>
> In this issue:
>
> @ @ @ Dear Jillian
> re: alanis: this too shall pass
> Eve Trading Cards (My Civic Duty)
> @ Sixpence (So that I may dive headfirst)
> Re: @ @ @ Dear Jillian
> Re: Alanis bashing
> Re: Alanis bashing
> Re: Alanis bashing
> Planet of the Apes
> Re: @ @ @ Dear Jillian
> Re: @@@ Re: @@@@Re: Alanis -- the other white meat.
> Re: Alanis bashing.
> Re: Alanis bashing
> Re: Sam bashing
>
> See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
> Over-The-Rhine mailing list and on how to retrieve back issues.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:00:06 -0500
> From: "jg900" <jg900 at bright_net>
> Subject: @ @ @ Dear Jillian
>
> dear jillian,
> thanks for taking the heat off the r.e.m. comments with this alanis stuff.
> i appreciate it.
> love,
> jg
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:20:09 EST
> From: Kendrickjd at aol_com
> Subject: re: alanis: this too shall pass
>
> In a message dated 11/4/98 7:41:10 PM Central Standard Time, mdawson at gate_net
> writes:
>
> > Hmmm..."Thank you India" describes her last two years...I'll have to think
> > about that one. Did she sell alot of records there? Actually, I'd prefer
> > if she were a little more thankful for nothingness and silence.
> > As for "real"...Alanis was a teeny bopping Debbie Gibson clone in Canada.
> > She was teamed up with producer Glenn Ballard (known for his work with
> > artists of great integrity, like Wilson Phillps) for her first proper U.S.
> > album. They must have decided that angry grrl music was "in" at the time.
> > Talk about contrived.
>
> first of all, alanis went to india with her mother, grandmother, and other
> family members, and she had some really moving experiences there. if you want
> to know more, ask her. selling records? no. so be careful. if alanis' goal
> in life was to be the biggest, best pop star out there then why the hell
> hasn't she put out an album since 1995?? she could have milked her success
> for all it was worth back then when she was one of the few "angry women" in
> mainstream.
> also, maybe the debbie gibson-like image was the act, not the angry woman
> thing. maybe she was trying to do what would sell in canada, and the producer
> told her to just be herself, that self being angry. she could have easily
> made another angry album this time around, and i am sure that is what a lot of
> people expected. but she didn't. this album sounds a lot more mature. that
> is what "thank u" is all about. in the video she is naked. vulnerable.
> open. honest. exposed. and she is saying thank you to india for the
> experiences she had there, to terror b/c she was afraid, disillusionment b/c
> she didn't know what she was going to do after that album, frailty,
> consequence, etc, and silence... she had a long time between projects to do
> some reflecting...
> personally, i don't care if every experience alanis sings/writes about has
> happened to her. it has happened to someone, and i am sure that that someone
> relates. i like the old album. it's great for a certain mood, and so is the
> new album. i think it is perfect for fans like me who bought the other album
> early in college or late high school... like alanis, we've grown up.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 06:38:23 PST
> From: "Bruce Lachey" <b_lachey at hotmail_com>
> Subject: Eve Trading Cards (My Civic Duty)
>
> Hej, all.
>
> I noticed there is an active EBay auction of the phenominal Eve trading
> cards going on (www.ebay.com). Do a search on "Eve Over Rhine" and you
> should find it.
>
> Obviously this is bittersweet info to provide to y'all; I don't want any
> of you to waste lunch and liquor money outbidding one another, but if
> you don't have them, it's definitely not something to pass up.
>
> Bruce
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:55:16 PST
> From: "Bruce Lachey" <b_lachey at hotmail_com>
> Subject: @ Sixpence (So that I may dive headfirst)
>
> OK, here's a first for me. I figure I'd ask e-friends first before
> scaling the scary big internet world.
>
> If there are any rabid Sixpence None the Richer fans out there willing
> to make a CDR for me to peruse and decide where to go from there, I'd be
> willing to make it worth his/her while. I'm interested in the
> following:
>
> * 5-song "Original Demos" 1992
> * "Bouquet" from Steve Taylor Tribute CD "I Predict a Clone",
> Rex, 1994
> * "Leigh and Me" by Starflyer 2000 from "@rtİore Volume One" on
> Tooth & Nail Records, 1995
> * "Road to Zion" from Petra Tribute CD "Never Say Dinosaur",
> Star Song, 1996
> * "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch" from "Christmas in Heaven"
> compilation CD, Flying Tart Records, 1996
> * Bob Clearmountain remixes of "Love" and "Sister, Mother" and
> * "Sad But True" from ltd. edition vinyl "Sixpence..." 1998
>
> Please e-me with info.
>
> Thanks,
> Bruce
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:43:27 PST
> From: "Jillian Tully" <waytogojane at hotmail_com>
> Subject: Re: @ @ @ Dear Jillian
>
> jg900 at bright_net wrote:
>
> dear jillian,
> thanks for taking the heat off the r.e.m. comments with this alanis
> stuff.
> i appreciate it.
> love,
> jg
>
> Hey, no problem! I'm good at this digressing business...so what does
> everyone think of the Billy doll? (I was in Greenwich Village last night
> forgive me hehe)
>
> love,
> jillian <><
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:23:26 -0600 (CST)
> From: "MICHAEL J. CHRISTEL" <CHRISTEL at uwplatt_edu>
> Subject: Re: Alanis bashing
>
> > jillian said...
>
> > You hit the nail right on the head. Once someone becomes popular,
> > everyone is so quick to abandon them! I've heard it right here in the
> > REM argument. I've seen it happen to some Radiohead fans. Most Nirvana
> > fans did that,as well as Green Day fans. Once these bands became media
> > successes,the fans couldn't handle not having a "secret club" anymore.
> >
>
> When somone becomes "popular" nowadays it seems that this includes having
> that somone stuffed down the throat of every radio listening, MTV watching
> person everywhere. When I am forced to listen to the same songs everywhere I
> won't willingly go home and listen to the same music. Over time the music I
> had liked which has become "popular" turns into something that I will run
> from.( Wow, I have become conditioned to hate popular music.)
>
> > What oh what oh WHAT IS IT about produced music that turns all you
> > intellgent people off????
>
> As for produced music, it seems to work kinda the same way. If I was on a
> record label and had one "hit" record, would that label push me to make my next
> album exactly the same? The first album was original, and me musically, but
> the second album is just a copy of something else. Where is the fresh sound
> there? We are stuck with stale recycled music.
> I think this is why some people aren't too excited about the direction OtR
> is heading because it looks like they are heading twards this pop market. I
> don't know, I'm just making things up now...
>
> Mike Christel
> p.s. sorry for the OtR content :)
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
> - Winston Churchill
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:23:43 EST
> From: Otherone at aol_com
> Subject: Re: Alanis bashing
>
> In a message dated 11/5/98 12:43:17 PM, CHRISTEL at uwplatt_edu writes:
>
> <<> What oh what oh WHAT IS IT about produced music that turns all you
> > intellgent people off????>>
>
> First of all,all music is produced by someone. There are clearly differences
> between good production and bad production. There are producers that have
> vision and those who dont. Take for example the production work of Daniel
> Lanois. Did he have a different vision of Bob Dylan than his previous
> producers? And his work with Emmy Lou Harris on wrecking ball? How about the
> difference between the production of say Rickie Lee Jones's albums? Traffic
> from paradise which she produced is far different than flying cowboys that
> Walter Becker produced. Those were two distinctly different wonderful
> approaches to the music and the artist.
>
> Why would someone insist on imputting different lyrics to the same old
> droneing music of Rem. Why waste the time? I can stand and enjoy most of their
> albums. But why buy ten? Just download the lyrics from the net ,buy one,and
> save your money. As for Alannis,what I've heard from the new release sounds
> pretty good. Sounds like she is maturing like Sheryl Crowe has. They both it
> seems to me, sold out somewhat to get where they did. Sometimes you have to
> sell some of your self to get that oppertunity. It's a tough buisness. It
> seems that their music is being transformed to were they want to be. The past
> is the past. They made the decision to play the game to get there,and now they
> are excercising the power that they have to change it. God bless 'em
>
> A few years back I went to see Bruce Cockburn and Sam Phillips opened for him.
> She played her songs solo acoustic because of problems with her band. this was
> the first I had heard her. She was Great in that setting. I went out and
> bought the 2 albums that were available at the time, brought them home and
> wondered"what was going through this guys mind that produced this? It seemed
> to me that he was more worried aboud his own selfish musing than her music.
> They were horrible.
>
> Or the last release by Maria McKee. What was that all about. That producer
> ruined her as an artist and masked that beautiful voice. If you take offense
> at peoples criticism of bands that have missed the ball in production or
> setteled for mediocrity .It's not always because the masses invaded their
> little sanctuary,It's because we may have spent the 16 dollars,and we've heard
> it all before ,or it just plain sucked!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:45:55 -0600
> From: "Paul Christian Glenn" <cirhsein at top_net>
> Subject: Re: Alanis bashing
>
> I think Alanis bashing is justifiable. I have no problem with her being
> famous (that would just be stupid). What I *do* have a problem with is her
> emphatically annoying vocals (which just grate on my nerves), and her
> "bad-girl" posturing (which is tiresome after a couple of minutes, and
> downright aggravating after several months). Too bad, too, because the
> lyrics to her new single are very good.
>
> There's my .02, FWIW.
>
> Paul Christian Glenn | "Life without music would be an
> cirhsein at top_net | intolerable insult."
> www.top.net/x-real | - Edward Abbey
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:50:57 -0600
> From: "Paul Christian Glenn" <cirhsein at top_net>
> Subject: Planet of the Apes
>
> This was just forwarded to me. Hurry! There's not much time!
>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please distribute this to everyone (on earth, that is) you know:
>
> When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress in Ape Suits.
>
> We have 8 days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her head.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:59:29 PST
> From: "Jillian Tully" <waytogojane at hotmail_com>
> Subject: Re: @ @ @ Dear Jillian
>
> <jg900 at bright_net> asked:
>
> what's a Billy doll?
> jg
>
> Ummm....well it's one of those Ken-type dolls,but he's the first openly
> gay doll. I saw one in the Village last night and it's been on my
> mind...interesting the things that stay with you...
>
> ~jillian~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "And if my fortune weren't only lint and small change
> wishing in one hand bird in another see which one will take me
> farthest from here..." - Over The Rhine
>
> "And the stories in my pockets are the best I've ever lived...so what if
> they don't sell,sell,sell..." - Sarah Masen
>
> \\|//http://listen.to/me_thank_you\\|//
> /|\ /|\
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:40:51 -0600
> From: Layne Petersen <petersen at info2000_net>
> Subject: Re: @@@ Re: @@@@Re: Alanis -- the other white meat.
>
> scott ulrich wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, DustyVolume wrote:
> >
> > > While were talking about it, can't stant Bjork either.
> >
> > Oh man... what's wrong with Bjo:rk?!? I been a fan ever since human
> > behavior, and that song doesn't compare to some of her other work.
> > If I remember correctly (which I do) phat-cat Mikey listed Bjo:rk's album
> > post as one of his 5 disks in the changer...
>
> _Homogenic_ was my #5 or 6 of last year, and _Post_ was probably about there
> for '95. Bjork's amazing. Arias from Venus, I heard one critic describe her
> as. I've been a fan since "Birthday" off the Sugarcubes debut. What a
> beautiful song... A friend of mine had it in Icelandic, too. Man, but that
> was cool.
>
> - --
> ==============================================================
> Peace, hope, love, Jesus Christ - Layner
> ==============================================================
> ...it meant the world to hold a bruising faith,
> but now it's just a matter of grace... - Smashing Pumpkins
> ==============================================================
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:59:44 -0600
> From: Layne Petersen <petersen at info2000_net>
> Subject: Re: Alanis bashing.
>
> Jillian Tully wrote:
>
> > Kind,intelligent Bruce Lachey wrote:
> >
> > I don't get it. I understand it's very "Western Culture" to rip someone
> > to shreds when their personal fame clock hits 0:15, but I kinda like a
> > lot of her stuff.
> >
> > You hit the nail right on the head. Once someone becomes popular,
> > everyone is so quick to abandon them! I've heard it right here in the
> > REM argument. I've seen it happen to some Radiohead fans. Most Nirvana
> > fans did that,as well as Green Day fans. Once these bands became media
> > successes,the fans couldn't handle not having a "secret club" anymore.
>
> Yeah, that does suck. I personally think it's nice when a band I love hits
> it big. Provided said fame doesn't change them or make them change what
> they're doing just for continued fame. But, then again, none of the artists
> you listed did that. Can't really think of anyone who has right off the top
> of my head, but it's been a long week... The only thing I can think of in
> the artists you listed is when radio gloms onto a certain song by an artist
> and absolutely beats it into the ground. Especially when it's not the best
> song on the CD (like "Karma Police" or "Come as You Are" or "What's the
> Frequency, Kenneth?"). But that's not the artist's fault. I just feel like
> shouting "there's 11 more songs on this CD!" The Beasties and
> "Intergalactic" come to mind right now, as I've just heard it on the radio
> for the 8 billionth time...
>
> > is a pretty clever and well performed bit that essentially describes her
> > last two years out of the light. The single's well produced [maybe
> > that's what turns some of you off (?!)] and is "real".
>
> Eh. I just don't think it's a very good song... Kinda boring... As far as
> the first CD is concerned, I think the production sucked. It was really
> bland and flat-sounding. But, for what it's worth in this argument, I
> really did like "Head Over Feet" and the last song ("Wake up"? or something
> like that).
>
> > Though I realise
> > that people can have diverging musical interests from mine, it
> > simultaneously baffles me as well.
> >
> > What oh what oh WHAT IS IT about produced music that turns all you
> > intellgent people off???? PLEASE tell me!!! I can understand a distaste
> > for overly slick sterile R&B production,but it seems like anything that
> > isn't stripped down,raw or extremely thoughtful is not good enough.
>
> Not all well-produced stuff is bad. The new Hole CD is really produced, and
> it's probably one of top 3 or 4 of the year. The new Garbage as well...
>
> > This
> > is why I'm scared of my own career. I know that if I released an album
> > in the style of my current producer,all of y'all would probably laugh at
> > me!!!
>
> Why, what's the style of your current producer?
>
> > I thought about Alanis after I made that post,and although I still
> > shake my head at "Ironic",I'm a fan dag nabbit!!! She's cool.
> >
> > OK I needed to use my credit card there,that was way more than 2 cents.
> > None of that was directed at anyone specific,either,and I'm still in a
> > great mood. :)
>
> :)> I swear I really will email you back, Jillian. I didn't just send you
> a phantom email and then disappear...
>
> - --
> ==============================================================
> Peace, hope, love, Jesus Christ - Layner
> ==============================================================
> ...it meant the world to hold a bruising faith,
> but now it's just a matter of grace... - Smashing Pumpkins
> ==============================================================
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:13:04 -0600
> From: Layne Petersen <petersen at info2000_net>
> Subject: Re: Alanis bashing
>
> Otherone at aol_com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 11/5/98 12:43:17 PM, CHRISTEL at uwplatt_edu writes:
> >
> > <<> What oh what oh WHAT IS IT about produced music that turns all you
> > > intellgent people off????>>
> >
> > First of all,all music is produced by someone. There are clearly differences
> > between good production and bad production. There are producers that have
> > vision and those who dont. Take for example the production work of Daniel
> > Lanois. Did he have a different vision of Bob Dylan than his previous
> > producers? And his work with Emmy Lou Harris on wrecking ball? How about the
> > difference between the production of say Rickie Lee Jones's albums? Traffic
> > from paradise which she produced is far different than flying cowboys that
> > Walter Becker produced. Those were two distinctly different wonderful
> > approaches to the music and the artist.
>
> I agree completely. I'm biased on the Lanois part, though. I pretty much think
> his production is genius...
>
> > Why would someone insist on imputting different lyrics to the same old
> > droneing music of Rem. Why waste the time? I can stand and enjoy most of their
> > albums. But why buy ten? Just download the lyrics from the net ,buy one,and
> > save your money.
>
> This, on the other hand, is pretty much nonsense, imo. REM hasn't made 2
> same-sounding CDs yet in a couple of decades. The new CD is phenomenal. The
> addition of "electronic" bells and whistles and Stipe's continued uncovering
> lyrically both give me chills. "At My Most Beautiful," "You're In the Air"
> (probably my favourite track), "Diminished," "Parakeet"... they're all absolutely
> beautiful...
>
> > As for Alannis,what I've heard from the new release sounds
> > pretty good. Sounds like she is maturing like Sheryl Crowe has.
>
> Um, Sheryl Crow is "maturing" and REM's stuff sounds the same? Think you got that
> one backwards...
>
> > They both it
> > seems to me, sold out somewhat to get where they did. Sometimes you have to
> > sell some of your self to get that oppertunity. It's a tough buisness. It
> > seems that their music is being transformed to were they want to be. The past
> > is the past. They made the decision to play the game to get there,and now they
> > are excercising the power that they have to change it. God bless 'em
> >
> > A few years back I went to see Bruce Cockburn and Sam Phillips opened for him.
> > She played her songs solo acoustic because of problems with her band. this was
> > the first I had heard her. She was Great in that setting. I went out and
> > bought the 2 albums that were available at the time, brought them home and
> > wondered"what was going through this guys mind that produced this? It seemed to
> > me that he was more worried aboud his own selfish musing than her music. They
> > were horrible.
>
> And, once again, I think those CDs are great (since they're probably _The
> Indescribable Wow_ and the one right after it, the title of which escapes me).
> Her husband was the guy whose mind you were trying to guess, btw... (T-Bone
> Burnett)
>
> - --
> ==============================================================
> Peace, hope, love, Jesus Christ - Layner
> ==============================================================
> ...it meant the world to hold a bruising faith,
> but now it's just a matter of grace... - Smashing Pumpkins
> ==============================================================
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:07:00 -0600
> From: "Brad Caviness" <bigwig at arkansas_net>
> Subject: Re: Sam bashing
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Otherone at aol_com
> >A few years back I went to see Bruce Cockburn and Sam Phillips opened for
> him.
> >She played her songs solo acoustic because of problems with her band. this
> was
> >the first I had heard her. She was Great in that setting. I went out and
> >bought the 2 albums that were available at the time, brought them home and
> >wondered"what was going through this guys mind that produced this? It
> seemed
> >to me that he was more worried aboud his own selfish musing than her music.
> >They were horrible.
> >
> If you like that solo show, you really need to pick up her record, "The
> Turning." It was originally recorded and released back when she was still
> Leslie Phillips, but was reissued this year under her current nom de plum.
> It has that same kind of spooky intimacy that was the hallmark of those
> performances (I remember seeing her on that tour at Mississippi Nights in
> St. Louis, looking a little strange in her smart red suit and earthy,
> gigantic acoustic guitar). But I must take a little exception with your
> opinion of "The Indescribable Wow" and "Cruel Inventions". I think both are
> fine records, "Cruel Inventions", in particular, is one of the finest
> examples of literary, intelligent, and economical songwriting I've seen.
>
> And the producer in question is none other than one TBone Burnett, who's
> been behind such hits as Elvis Costello, Counting Crows, the WallFlowers,
> Bruce Cockburn, et al. He and Sam were such a good fit, artistically and
> personally, she married him after they produced "The Turning" together, and
> he's produced all of her albums, increasingly in collaboration with her. So
> she's as much to blame for the sound of her records as Henry. The acoustic
> thing with Cockburn was the diversion from normal, made more from an
> economics than artistic standpoint. That, and the guitar player she did have
> on that tour had to leave less than half way through when his father died,
> forcing Sam to play on her own.
>
> But give Sam's records a chance. I think with an open mind, she will win you
> over pretty quick.
>
> BSC
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Over-The-Rhine Digest V2 #343
> ************************************
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