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Re: call a lostee a lostee



>From: Alfred B Johnson:
>Artful propaganda can exist; propaganda can be a sort of art.

Art:  definition 3- Any system of rules and principles that facilitates 
SKILLED human accomplishment; also the application of these rules and 
principles. 4. A pursuit or occupation that depends on the SKILLED 
application of such a system of rules and principles 5. Practical SKILL; 
dexterity

Hasn't the term "art" assumed an even greater scope in modern parlance?  
When exactly did we start to refer to anything and everything that requires 
more than three steps in order to be skillfully executed as an "art"?  "The 
art of making tea."  "Zen and the art of Motorcyle repair."  "The art of 
selecting a good vaccum cleaner."  Etc.  Heck, I'm an "artisan" because I 
can cook a mean omlette!?!  (let alone craft a pair of quality, affordable 
eyewear.)  I'm not disagreeing with any of your assertions, Fred.  However, 
art in the purest, traditional sense of the word (the arts) should involve a 
degree of creativity, don't you think?  Is propaganda really an excercise in 
creativity? To me, the phrase "art of propaganda" would not refer to 
creativity at all.  Rather, it would allude to the subtlety and 
successfulness with which said propaganda influences it's intended auidence. 
  Therefore "spin-doctors", jounralists, speech writers and Rosie O'Donnell 
are all capable of becoming great artisans, but not artists in the classical 
sense.  Right?

I guess what I trying to ask here is this- is propaganda itself the real 
potential art form, or is it the mastery of the actual psychology of 
(successful) propaganda??

The "art" a musical group makes is a different, more traditional type of 
art- music, which falls along with literature, theater, film-making, 
painting, sculpting etc. under the umbrella of "the arts".  (Wish I could 
bring up +Live+ here, but I promised.)  So, the skinhead band in my 
hypothetical example would be praticing the "art" of punk rock definitely, 
and the "art" of poetic phrasing/lyricism definitey, but the practice of the 
"art" of propaganda would depend on how influencial they were on others.  
This form of "art" is always necessarily contingent on how skilled (or 
"artfully") it is excuted, while the other artistic elements of their 
presentation would be "art" necessarily by virtue of their belonging to "the 
arts".  Does this sound right?

The point is not to be sure what's art and what's propaganda, but to be
>sure when you've been hit with propaganda that you know it, and to
>understand when something is beautiful or not.

Yep, which is why I was trying to be cuationary with the fellow listees I 
care about.

>So . . . Where is the line between propaganda and art, and where is the
>line between beauty and ugliness?  These are not solvable questions: it's
>enough to know that the questions exist.

Is it totally unsolvable?  Did any of what I just wrote make any sense?  (I 
don't know, honest.  I'm not really a student of "the arts".  Melanie??)

Ayway, the above evokes the endless porn debate- is it art?  I myself think 
x-rated movies generally hold no more a valid claim to having artistic value 
than anybody's home movies, (heck, much porn is somebody's home movies) but 
the question is legislatvely unsolvable, as you've said.  Porno is here to 
stay.

I agreed with everything in your post Fred, but this is not a debate.  I 
defer to your superior intellect , and would never attempt to debate you.  I 
just wanted to engage you in a dialogue on this point, and, as usual, you 
didn't disappoint.

How about me.  I only have the Norton Anthology of English Literature Volume 
1.  Do I dissappoint??

One last thing, Fred.  You call yourself a "doddering old man"?  Your wit 
negates any claim to beng "doddering" (if, by that, you indeed mean "senile" 
as your context suggests), and as for your age...I don't know how old you 
are, but refer to Paul Simon- "God is old, we're not old, God is old, he 
made the mold."

See ya in that geriatric ward in the sky,

(What is the...) Mattrick




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