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more fun for all ages with touchy subjects

Mark Utley writes:
>Race is a very, very sensitive issue in this country
>(as it should be). 

so let's talk about our ideas, thoughts and concerns
and learn from each other. you teach me what you're
learning and feeling, i'll do the same. (religion, the
word "fuck" and duran duran are very sensitive issues,
and they've come up on this list. :) to my knowledge,
the list has historically survived some pretty heated
exchange from very diverse people.)

>What seems to bother you the most is that a white 
>guy (Ric) is performing under a musical moniker
>normally associated with a black man (Thelonious
>Monk).

nope, what bothers me the most is that a musician is
performing under a musical moniker normally associated
with another musician. the fact that in this instance,
the original musician was black, and the band that
assumed the name is white wasn't meant to be my main
point. i was just thinking outloud that i personally
couldn't go there. you don't have to explain to me
that i'm a racist because i felt that way. in spite of
all the posts, the concept still makes me a tiny, tiny
bit uneasy for some reason. but i appreciate your
asking me to examine the validity of my initial
reaction. i will continue to do so. again, if i was
too casual with my initial gut feeling, and if anyone
took my point to be that i feel ric is a racist, i
apologize. i don't think ric is a racist.

>I guess my feelings about the name issue (removing
>the "black and white" context) is that, of course,
>someone using "Monk" for a musical name has to be
>aware that it would in some way reference the great
>jazzman.

that was my point. thank you. if you want to think of
the above as an original idea you had, i won't stand
in the way of you positioning yourself as reasonable
and wise. 

>So, if it were me, I would be loathe to choose it
>unless I had the chops to back it up.

sorry mark. i don't follow your logic. i can't name my
band sting just because i think of myself as a great
singer, even if i have "the chops to back it up".
i personally wouldn't name my band the edge, just
because i was a great guitarist, and knew my way
around a digital delay, and had "the chops to back it
up". i wouldn't argue like some have on this list that
it could refer to the edge of a table, and tables have
been around alot longer than u2, therefore people
weren't going to think of u2 if they heard someone
discussing a musician named the edge. some teenager
somewhere probably called his band the edge. i
personally wouldn't because i would think it was a bit
misguided. that's just me.

>Ric does, (have the chops to back it up) whether you
>personally care for his music or not.

again, whether or not he has "the chops" is not the
issue, but let's ask ric, shall we. i don't think he
would agree with you. ric didn't pioneer, define and
reinvent an important development in music that is
referenced and studied in every reputable music school
around the world. ric's compositions haven't been
recorded by hundreds of musicians around the world.
ric hasn't had books written about his life and music,
nor been referenced in hundreds of books discussing
the history of music in the 20th century. ric hasn't
had documentary films on his life and music play in
art theatres around the world and on the BBC and PBS.
you might like ric's guitar playing, but please,
that's not my point either. (the rest of you who like
ric's playing, don't feel like you need to run forward
for my sake on this discussion list and point out that
he's a genius laboring in obscurity. i know you
probably feel that way. as my strident friend tom
pointed out, why not do him the courtesy of discussing
his music on his discussion list.)
unfortunately for ric, if i do have a point about the
name issue, and serious music journalists around the
world do have occasion to review his music, they may,
like me, think of the existing musical legend named
monk, delicately arch an eyebrow, and set his record
aside. are they going to go on record saying they have
a problem with the second monk? probably not. for
ric's sake, i hope i'm wrong and i might well be.

>it wouldn't have been without precendent in the 
>music industry.  Thelonious' son had a group in (I
>believe) the '70s/'80s called "T.S. Monk".

uh, mark, no comment. well, i can't resist. so if you
named your band Dylan, you would point to Jakob Dylan
and say, see, he didn't seem to have a problem with
using that name. tee hee hee hee. :) (and yes, jakob
thought up his own name for his group.)

>Then please don't use "black" and "white" as musical
>definitions for what's good and bad to your taste

ok, i won't. i accept that this could be and was
confusing and inappropriate. all the words i use to
describe music fall short. i've heard (white)
musicians that i respect describe music that they feel
lacks soul, conviction, humanity etc, as "that is so
white". most white musicians i know tend to idolize
black musicians. maybe it is a sort of reverse racism,
i'll think about it some more. in the meanwhile, i
accept your, shall we say, ever so slightly
supercilious (and justified) slap on the wrist. (i
kept waiting for you to point out that you were the
resident race expert on the list, and that i should
have felt shame in advance for my thoughts and ideas.)
formulaic, shallow music has been made by people of
all races. people of all races have made soulful,
moving, wonderful music. this will always be
subjective depending on the listener. 
on a different note regarding race, a touchy subject,
i personally feel if black people hadn't thrown their
music and rhythms into the musical melting pot, we'd
all be bankrupt. i also personally feel if white
people hadn't taken elements of black music and made
it their own, we'd all be bankrupt. there would be a
hole in my heart that i wouldn't know was there if
billie holiday hadn't made records that i have had the
privilege of hearing. there would be a bigger hole in
my heart if johnny cash hadn't.

that's just silly ol' me.

still itchin' to discuss otr, makin' people mad in the
meanwhile, and writin' way too much,

tina

ps if people want to discuss the name issue more (i
can't imagine covering new ground at this point),
e-mail me directly and we'll take the discussion
elsewhere. unless, of course, one of the old-timers
explains to me convincingly why we should keep going.

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